In Episode 1101 of the Outlier's Edge Podcast, Niiamah Ashong coaches Michael Ashford live on air. Michael is a speaking and communications coach, a two-time TEDx speaker and the author of Can I Ask a Question?, and he came in to make his company, Rethinking Communication, the thing he does. The coaching finds that the marketer in him gets people in the door, and Michael the leader grows what happens next.
Episode at a glance
- Guest: Michael Ashford, speaking and communications coach, two-time TEDx speaker and author of Can I Ask a Question?
- Background: longtime marketer and executive and former journalist; his company is Rethinking Communication
- Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
- Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, Episode 1101, released November 5, 2026
- Format: live coaching conversation, 48 minutes
- Topics: communication as change, the four seasons of change, recurring corporate clients, the communication tax, a talk as a springboard, the marketer and the leader
What Michael brought to the conversation
Michael helps people communicate in ways they didn't learn in school. His thesis is that all communication is an attempt to bring about change, and that telling people what to do doesn't create lasting change; he points to John Maxwell's four seasons in which people really change. He says his business has grown every year, and he came in to make Rethinking Communication the thing he does, with more corporate clients alongside his one-to-one work. He calls the cost of cross-departmental communication breaks the communication tax, and he pictures companies that bring him in every time they promote somebody or bring in a new leader.
What shifted
Niiamah reframed the game: change isn't learning enough to no longer need a coach, it's learning enough to want to, and a one-time talk can be the springboard into a bigger game rather than the whole engagement. Michael took up the question "what's the bigger game here?" as language for his own work. When he said out loud the question he'd been circling, what would it look like to bring him into the rest of the company, Niiamah pointed out that it came from Michael himself, not the marketer. Michael's insight: the opportunity is already there, what got him the opportunity is not what will keep growing it, and he can shape that growth by showing up as himself and by how he shares the vision of the horizon.
If you’re a leader ready for this kind of conversation about your own work, here’s where to start: 1:1 with Niiamah | World of Difference, our coaching membership.
Questions this episode answers
Why is all communication about change?
Michael Ashford's thesis is that all communication is trying to bring about some sort of change; otherwise it's chitchat. As he puts it, leading, guiding and bringing about change in an organization is the entire job of a leader, and communication is the core and foundation of that.
What are John Maxwell's four seasons of change?
As Michael Ashford cites it, people change when they hear enough that they have to, see enough that they're inspired to, learn enough that they want to, and receive enough that they're able to. His point is that leaders lean on the first, forcing change, and it doesn't create lasting change.
What is the communication tax?
It's Michael Ashford's name for what cross-departmental communication breaks cost a company. He says leaders who don't work on how they communicate with their teams cost the company money, especially new leaders promoted for being great individual contributors who now have to resolve conflict between two people who were their coworkers the week before.
How can a one-time talk turn into a lasting client relationship?
Niiamah Ashong's suggestion: treat the talk as the door into the relationship, more like a lead magnet than the product, and ask what the bigger game is beyond the talk. With a one-to-one client, the next step can be as direct as asking what it would look like to bring Michael into the rest of the company.
What's the difference between marketing a service and leading the client relationship?
In the conversation, "marketer Michael" finds the right package and gets people in the door, while Michael the leader, the person who wants the best for each person, team and company, has the conversations that grow the relationship. Niiamah Ashong's point is that being genuine and present communicates more than perfectly crafted words.
In their words
“All communication is trying to bring about some sort of change.”
Michael Ashford
“The game of change is not learning enough that they no longer need you. It's learning enough that they want to.”
Niiamah Ashong
“What got the opportunity for me is not what is going to continue to grow that opportunity.”
Michael Ashford, his biggest insight
Key moments
00:00 – Welcome to the Outlier's Edge Podcast
01:10 – Communicating in Ways We Didn't Learn in School
04:20 – All Communication Is About Change
05:02 – John Maxwell's Four Seasons of Change
09:46 – Making Rethinking Communication the Thing He Does
12:14 – The Path to More Corporate Clients
17:01 – A Business That Has Grown Every Year
19:12 – Predictable, Repeatable and Sustainable
22:00 – The Game of Change
26:49 – A TEDx Talk as a Springboard
30:54 – What's the Bigger Game Here?
34:27 – The Communication Tax in Companies
37:37 – What If the Talk Is the Lead Magnet?
41:27 – What Would It Look Like to Bring Me In?
44:30 – Marketer Michael and Michael the Leader
46:30 – The Opportunity Is Already There
Enter Michael Ashford’s world
Michael points listeners to his website, michaelashford.com, the hub for his social media, coaching links and podcast.
Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube | Website | Website
More conversations like this
- The Process of Finding an Identity with Samantha Venia Logan
- The Hidden Work Behind Success | Anthony Trucks, Chelsea Johnson | Ep 922
- Change the Systems You Already Influence | Ryan Hagen | Ep 858
About Niiamah Ashong
Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. The Outlier’s Edge Podcast is a live coaching show. Make a difference with your difference.
Work with Niiamah: 1:1 with Niiamah | World of Difference, our coaching membership
Continue into Outlier’s Edge World:
Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube | Website | Guild Community
Reader Interactions