Niiamah Ashong

“Follow the flow, follow the nudges, let go of ‘this is how you’ve got to do it,’ and trust.” – Anke Herrmann

Join Niiamah Ashong as he explores the power of pivoting, play, and trusting the process with Anke Herrmann. Discover how letting go of rigid rules and leaning into joy can unlock incredible ease and achievement.

Welcome to the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, hosted by Niiamah Ashong, Founder of Outlier’s Edge and Sherpa of the World of Difference. On this podcast, you’ll join other high-performing unconventional leaders and entrepreneurs (aka Outliers) as they talk about leveraging what makes them different to make a difference in the world.

–Check out the video episode on Youtube!—

Timestamps:

00:01 – Niiamah introduces Anke Herman
01:09 – Anke Herrmann: playful generosity
04:14 – Shaped by East Germany
06:07 – Willingness to make moves
08:06 – Pivoting based on circumstances
11:14 – Creating the dog project
13:02 – Valuing dogs’ wisdom, soul
14:04 – Example of creation process
16:10 – Process: client to product
18:17 – Always following same principles
20:40 – Reframing business like community
22:03 – Following flow, no agenda
25:10 – Incredible results from flow
28:27 – Synergy: systems and flow
30:18 – “In case of doubt…”
31:00 – Outsite: Try it out!
32:43 – Time capsule: Nature’s perfect

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Paul Kan, an explorer of possibility who is bringing a people-first approach to the hospitality industry, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about living beyond limits. He shares how he learned to stop resisting his disruptive nature and make it work for him, in his own life and in his work with restaurants, where he champions putting people before plates. What emerged is that no part of a person can be cut off without losing its gift: the flip side of anger is passion, and every emotion can be channeled toward what a person wants to create.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Paul Kan, Explorer of possibility bringing a people-first approach to the hospitality industry
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released April 14, 2023
• Format: conversation, 47 minutes
• Topics: Self-knowledge, Coloring outside the lines, People before plates, The double edge of being an outlier, Anger and passion, Channeling emotion with intention

What Paul brought to the conversation

Paul Kan describes himself as a discoverer of possibility who doesn't color within the lines. He grew up in a household where the expectation was to fit in a box, and he left his corporate job after realizing the corporate ladder and the white picket fence were a limitation rather than the horizon. He wakes up every day asking whether there is a different way. Today he serves the hospitality industry as a disruptor, asking restaurants to see their people, not their food, as their most important asset.

What emerged

The central insight is that no part of a person can be cut off without losing what it brings. Paul Kan spent about 30 years trying not to be disruptive, and now he is learning to be in relationship with that trait and make it work for him. The same goes for emotions: pushing down anger also flattens joy, and the flip side of anger is passion. Niiamah Ashong took it further: global change needs access to every emotion, harnessed and applied toward the goals that call for it, and the two landed on a line from Paul Kan's mentor: it's okay to be angry, just not on people.

Questions this episode answers

Why should restaurants put people before plates?

Paul Kan says many restaurants focus on the food, the dining experience, the ambiance and the design, but not on how they treat people, in an industry often viewed as entry level and minimum wage. He sees a restaurant's most important asset as the people serving the food and running the business, and he asks what could be possible if the industry changed how it develops its talent and brings out the best in its people.

Can a leader's natural gift also be their biggest challenge?

Paul Kan says a person's gift is often also their biggest challenge to overcome. He spent about 30 years trying not to be disruptive and wanting to fit in, which felt like constantly fighting with himself, and he is now learning to be in relationship with that trait instead of resisting it. Niiamah Ashong calls this the double edge of being an outlier.

Why doesn't getting rid of a so-called bad trait work?

Paul Kan learned from a mentor that a person can't get rid of a part of themselves without cutting off half of their potential. When he pushed his anger down, he flatlined all his emotions and lost joy and excitement too, until he realized the flip side of anger is passion, the same energy. He applies the same lens elsewhere: nervousness carries the same energy as excitement, and once he stopped resisting being a night owl, he arranged his schedule around his most creative hours.

Can anger be useful for a leader creating change?

Paul Kan says no revolution or transformation ever happened because everything was peaceful and calm; it came from outrage that things need to change. He sees anger itself as neutral: it can be destructive or the catalyst for true change, depending on where it is channeled and the intention behind it. Niiamah Ashong noticed that the word outrageous holds the word rage, and that he can't bring outrageous effort to a mission without being willing to be outraged by how people are treated.

Why is forced optimism a problem in business?

Paul Kan says forced optimism is a downfall for many businesses, because it takes courage to acknowledge what isn't working, and there's no way to move forward from something that isn't faced. Emotions that are pushed down don't go anywhere, like a volcano or a shaken soda bottle, until they come out in a destructive way. Niiamah Ashong recalled a time his own joy became looking at the bright side when someone needed space for grief.

In their words

One of the best things you could do for yourself is really get to know yourself.

Paul Kan

You can't get rid of just one emotion, when you get rid of an emotion you get rid of all emotions.

Paul Kan

The flip side of anger is actually passion, it's the same energy, what do you want to do with that energy?

Paul Kan

Key moments

06:12 – Coloring outside the lines

09:52 – People before plates

17:14 – A gift that is also a challenge

20:18 – The double edge of being an outlier

21:21 – From negative to neutral to positive

26:34 – Anger and passion, the same energy

28:42 – Working with his natural rhythm

32:16 – The rage inside outrageous

36:56 – Authentic, but not on people

39:31 – The cost of forced optimism

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Kristen Kosinski, who inspires people to live vision-driven lives and who started and led a clean water nonprofit, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about living on the growth edge. She tells how remembering a childhood dream led her to leave her network television career, travel abroad and find herself inside the vision within three days. What emerged is her approach to bringing a vision to life: declare it, take the next step even when it feels edgy, and trust the foundation being built underneath to support the leap.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Kristen Kosinski, Coach who inspires people to live vision-driven lives; started and led a clean water nonprofit for 10 and a half years
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released March 28, 2023
• Format: conversation, 56 minutes
• Topics: Living a vision-driven life, Doing life afraid, Remembering a childhood dream, Arrival as a commencement, The bamboo and the quantum leap, Co-creating with something greater

What Kristen brought to the conversation

Kristen Kosinski describes herself as a human being on the green growing edge of becoming, someone who came to this planet to intentionally grow and who has been a student of personal development for 25 years. After 10 years as a network television executive, she started a nonprofit providing clean drinking water as a foundation to development and ran it for 10 and a half years as executive director; the organization brought clean water to thousands and thousands of people. Her mission now is to inspire people to live vision-driven lives and follow their dreams. Niiamah Ashong describes her presence as supernova energy, with a mama bear fierceness and a warmth in how she takes care of her people.

What emerged

The central idea is what Kristen Kosinski calls doing life afraid: when an intuitive hit feels edgy but important, say yes and do it anyway, because extraordinary goodness is often on the other side. Reaching the vision was not an ending for her but a commencement, a confirmation she was on the right track and a prompt to get curious about what's next. She uses the way bamboo grows to explain sudden leaps: years of small visible growth while an intricate root system forms underneath, then a quantum leap. When she describes co-creating with something greater, Niiamah Ashong connects it to his own long-held sense that serendipity loves him, and she names the pattern: declare the vision, take a step, and know you are not acting in isolation.

Questions this episode answers

What does it mean to live a vision-driven life?

Kristen Kosinski holds visions that are not her current reality, then asks herself what she could do today, where she is, with what she has, to move toward the life she would absolutely love to have. She says the steps that come are typically not comfortable; they require some courage.

What happens after a leader realizes a vision?

For Kristen Kosinski, being in the vision was a commencement, not an ending: a confirmation that she was on the right track. From there her job is to get curious about what's next, because a mission-driven life just keeps going, with each mission leading to the next.

How can someone reconnect with a dream they set aside?

In 2005, while working through a personal development process, Kristen Kosinski remembered a childhood dream of traveling abroad to work with women. The question she would ask anyone looking to remember what's real for them is simple: what would you love?

Why do big results sometimes seem to appear all at once?

Kristen Kosinski points to the way bamboo grows: an inch in year one, a few inches a year after that, then a huge leap in year five. All the while, an intricate root system has been forming underneath that can support the bamboo when it shoots up, the same way steps toward a vision build the foundation for the leap.

What does it look like to do life afraid?

Kristen Kosinski says she does something every day that scares her. Awake at three in the morning while creating new things in her business, she told herself she could lie in bed tied up in knots or turn on the light, get her notebook out and start writing.

In their words

I live a vision driven life. I hold visions that are not my current reality.

Kristen Kosinski

Being in the vision was just a confirmation to me that I was on the right track.

Kristen Kosinski

What would you love? That's it, because love is spirit, love is the infinite.

Kristen Kosinski

Key moments

03:08 – Supernova energy and presence

05:43 – On the growing edge of becoming

09:54 – Living a vision-driven life

12:29 – Remembering a childhood dream

13:30 – Going all in on the dream

16:37 – Inside the vision by day three

18:41 – Arrival as a commencement

21:45 – The question: what would you love

24:20 – Clean water for thousands

36:51 – How bamboo grows

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Theresa Bowie, a military officer, engineer and coach, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about embracing unconventional paths to success. She shares the prismatic experiences she brings into every room, from six years of active duty and a steel mill to the corporate world and coaching. What emerged is a reframe: what she has called the long way around has actually been a series of shortcuts, and when her soul calls for something, she jumps in and makes it work.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Theresa Bowie, Military officer, engineer and coach
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released March 21, 2023
• Format: conversation, 43 minutes
• Topics: A prismatic perspective, From the military to the corporate world, Beginner's mind in every room, Unconventional paths as shortcuts, Following the soul's calling, Leading people back to a colorful world

What Theresa brought to the conversation

Theresa Bowie brings what she calls a prismatic perspective. She served six years of active duty in the military, completed her degree, and started her career in an 1890-vintage steel mill, one of the experiences she says she'll treasure most, before moving into the corporate world. She earned her commission as an officer late in her career, going through officer training alongside graduates more than 10 years younger, and has over 17 years of military experience. About a year before this conversation she completed a long, global certification to teach a program whose message she is passionate about getting out to everyone, and she feels pulled to step away from corporate life to give back in bigger ways.

What emerged

The central shift is a reframe of her story. Theresa Bowie has called her path the long way around, and Niiamah Ashong showed her it has been a series of shortcuts: she keeps landing in rooms others took far longer to reach, bringing experiences they don't have. She named what drives it: when her soul calls for something, she goes with it and things happen, and she is learning to own that rather than call it luck. Her vision is to lead people out of the gray shades of daily life and back into a colorful world where they reconnect with their own mission.

Questions this episode answers

How can an unconventional career path become a shortcut?

Niiamah Ashong noticed that Theresa Bowie describes her path as the long way around, yet she keeps arriving in rooms that others spent years working toward, carrying experiences they didn't bring. He saw the same in his own career when he realized people in the same room had taken 15 years longer to get there, and he invited her to drop the long-way-around story.

How can a leader walk into a room with beginner's mind?

Theresa Bowie comes into rooms without making assumptions, almost like an empty cup, asking both what she can bring to the room and how the space can fill her up. Niiamah Ashong calls this a superpower, because many givers don't give themselves the space to keep playing the game when they don't look at how it fills them up.

How can military experience carry into a corporate career?

Theresa Bowie brought six years of active duty in the military into a steel mill and then the corporate world, where she found that behind the shiny glass windows it felt really familiar: everyone was just wearing different uniforms. People often see her as fresh out of college or brand new, and they are taken aback to learn she has more than 17 years of military experience.

What does it mean to follow your soul's calling in your career?

Theresa Bowie says that when her soul calls for something and she feels a burning desire to manifest it, she goes with it and things happen, and she is learning that it's not just luck, because people create their own luck. Stepping away from a lucrative job as an electrical engineer might sound crazy to other people, and her answer is that what she is doing isn't changing the world enough or fast enough for her.

Why should leaders stop playing down their own stories?

When Theresa Bowie closed a story by saying it was just one of the things that came to mind, Niiamah Ashong invited her to end it with a period instead. He sees phrases like that as innocuous habits people use to be polite, and he was there to celebrate her, not to let her give up on herself in the middle of it. Putting a period on the story led her to name its essence: when her soul calls for something, she goes with it.

In their words

Okay, actually this feels really familiar, we're just wearing different uniforms.

Theresa Bowie

What I'm doing is not changing the world enough or fast enough for me right now, so I need to do something different.

Theresa Bowie

Lead them back into the colorful world so they can reconnect with their souls and feel that spark to be driven on their own mission.

Theresa Bowie

Key moments

02:04 – Seen as a multifaceted diamond

04:39 – A prismatic perspective

05:39 – From the military to a steel mill

07:45 – Earning a commission late

13:01 – An empty cup in every room

18:45 – Different paths into the same room

22:27 – Unconventional paths as shortcuts

27:11 – Ending the sentence with a period

28:46 – When the soul calls

34:26 – Leading people back to color

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Matt Chavlovich, a coach committed to making people better, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about asking the hard questions that reveal what a person is capable of. Drawing on his time as a triathlete, he describes level 10 as giving everything and surrendering to the support of others. What emerged is a different game: finding out how good a person can be rather than just finishing, and surrounding themselves with people who will spot them.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Matt Chavlovich, Coach and business owner committed to making people better
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released March 7, 2023
• Format: conversation, 41 minutes
• Topics: Playing at level 10, Finding out what people are capable of, Surrender and support, Not enough yet, Leading with the heart, Choosing who spots them

What Matt brought to the conversation

Matt Chavlovich has studied the human mind since he was a teenager, earned a psychology degree and always envisioned training athletes to become better athletes. After a long run in corporate America, he started his own business about seven years ago to help people start the thing they've always wanted to do, and it has grown into helping people ask what they want and why they don't have it yet. His clients tell him he gives them possibility and permission, and he runs a group built around people hearing themselves roar: stepping into the world with what is inside them, surrounded by people doing the same. He wears his heart on his sleeve, and Niiamah Ashong credits him with modeling belonging from their very first conversation.

What emerged

For Matt Chavlovich, level 10 is the point where a person lets go of all control and has to surrender to the support and help of others, like giving everything in a race without knowing if there's enough left to finish. He asks whether people are willing to get the answer to what they're capable of, including the answer that they're not good enough yet, and the key word is yet. Matt encourages enlisting people as spotters while telling them clearly, 'I'll tell you when I need help,' and Niiamah Ashong recognizes in real time his own habit of announcing when he's about to do something scary so he feels free to do it.

Questions this episode answers

What does it mean to play at level 10?

Matt Chavlovich describes level 10 as the point where a person gives everything, lets go of all control and has to surrender to the support and help of others. In a race, it means choosing to go as fast as possible without knowing whether he'll get over the finish line, rather than holding back enough to make sure he finishes.

Is it better to finish or to find out how good you can be?

Matt Chavlovich argues that most people are just about finishing, and he invites them to play a different game: finding out how good they can be so next time they can be better. He says that when someone brings it all and one day is able to finish, they're playing at a different level.

How can a leader accept not being there yet?

Matt Chavlovich says one of people's greatest fears is to give it all and for it not to be enough, so the question is whether they're willing to get the answer to what they're capable of. He points out that so many people say they're not enough, when the key word is yet.

How do you find people who will support you when you push your limits?

Matt Chavlovich says that when people live this way and put that energy into the world, they attract the people who are willing to spot them and they filter for them. He encourages enlisting that support while telling spotters clearly when help is wanted, since people can bring in their own limitations when they think someone needs help.

Can your capacity to show up fully grow over time?

Niiamah Ashong shares that during a leadership opportunity, someone told him the real question was whether he could handle a level 10 version of himself. That led him to build his nervous system's capacity, and over time what was his level 10 has become a level seven.

In their words

Play a different game. Find out how good you can be so next time you can be better.

Matt Chavlovich

So many people are like, oh, I'm not there, I'm not enough. No, you're not enough yet.

Matt Chavlovich

Surround yourself with people that accept what you're about and you'll have more courage to lean into it.

Matt Chavlovich

Key moments

03:08 – Letting go of winning and losing

07:16 – A first conversation about belonging

08:19 – A heart worn on the outside

13:56 – Committed to making people better

15:31 – Who decides what someone can handle

18:35 – Building capacity for level 10

21:38 – Level 10 means surrender

28:55 – Finishing versus finding out

31:37 – Not enough yet

33:12 – Attracting people willing to spot

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Carolina Migliaccio, a heart-led leader who helps people step into their emotional freedom, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast for a conversation about humanity mattering and the edge of being seen. She talks about the difference between the discomfort that leads to the next level and the fear that holds people back, and about the book chapter she is keeping because it matters. What emerged is a shared lesson for anyone who creates: have an intention for what people take away, and stay open to the other messages that come through.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Carolina Migliaccio, Heart-led leader who helps people step into their emotional freedom, and is writing a book
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released February 21, 2023
• Format: conversation, 45 minutes
• Topics: Humanity mattering, Leading from the heart, Emotional freedom, Threshold versus fear, Ways to be seen, Writing the chapter that matters

What Carolina brought to the conversation

Carolina Migliaccio says she is about humanity mattering, and calls herself a heart-led leader who leads from her heart because without passion and joy, nothing really matters. Her work is helping people step into their emotional freedom, with a mission of impacting 100 million lives, and the number one principle she shares with her clients is that you have to be in it and feel. The pen has always been her voice, and she is writing a book with help from a publishing company and editors. Niiamah Ashong describes a solidity to her that can be felt, together with a joy and a positive flavor she brings to everything.

What emerged

Carolina Migliaccio names a distinction worth keeping: the discomfort at the threshold of the next level is very different from the fear that holds people back. Her own edge is being seen beyond the page, and her preference is to be seen in conversation, such as on podcasts, rather than alone on camera. Niiamah Ashong shares that what people take from his videos is often not what he set out to say, and she draws the message for both of them: have an intention of what you want people to take away, and be open to receive other messages that come through.

Questions this episode answers

How can a leader tell the difference between productive discomfort and fear?

Carolina Migliaccio says a conversation can be a little uncomfortable, and it's that discomfort that gets people to the next level, so they should be able to embrace it. She adds that they also need to discern the difference between that threshold and the fear that's holding them back, because those are two very different things.

What does emotional freedom require?

The number one principle Carolina Migliaccio shares with her clients is that you have to be in it and feel. She says many people aren't free because they don't want to talk about things and stuff everything down, and that walking through the bad and feeling it is how people heal.

Why is anger closer to freedom than apathy?

Carolina Migliaccio describes five stages on the way to freedom, with apathy at the bottom: not feeling a thing and saying you're fine. When you feel anger, she says, you are right before getting to freedom, because you've got to feel that charge and release it.

How should a creator think about what people take from their work?

Niiamah Ashong says people often tell him they got something from his videos that was different from what he was talking about. Carolina Migliaccio draws the lesson: have an intention of what you want people to take away, but also be open to receive other messages that come through, because that's the gift to them and to you.

Can a leader be seen without going live alone on camera?

Carolina Migliaccio's preference is to do things with someone rather than alone, such as podcasts, because the conversation is much richer and it is also a way to be seen. Niiamah Ashong adds that there are so many different ways to be seen.

In their words

That's the beauty of being an outlier because you're not like anybody else.

Carolina Migliaccio

Have an intention of what you want people to take away from it but also be open to receive other messages that come through.

Carolina Migliaccio

Walking through the bad and feeling the bad is how we heal. We can't heal if we don't feel.

Carolina Migliaccio

Key moments

05:13 – About humanity mattering

06:45 – Helping people into emotional freedom

09:49 – Discomfort at the threshold versus fear

10:52 – The pen has been her voice

19:10 – Intention and openness to other messages

21:47 – Being seen through conversation

26:24 – A mission of 100 million lives

28:29 – Keeping the chapter that matters

33:11 – You have to be in it

34:14 – Five stages to freedom

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

Work with Niiamah: 1:1 with Niiamah | World of Difference

Continue into Outlier’s Edge World:

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