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Alexis Artin, a master embodiment teacher and dancer since the age of four, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about coming into and serving from a place of unconditional love. She explains the difference between comfort and belonging, and why she sees everything existing in balance. What emerged is a real shift for Niiamah: seeing that his family and his creative work aren't at odds, and that he doesn't have to hold the balance alone.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Alexis Artin, Master embodiment teacher and dancer since age four
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released November 3, 2022
• Format: conversation, 49 minutes
• Topics: Comfort versus belonging, Co-regulation, Soul-sourced embodiment, Everything in balance, Deeper roots, wider wings, Interrogating assumptions

What Alexis brought to the conversation

Alexis Artin is a trained master embodiment teacher who has been a dancer since she was four years old, and movement is a big part of her life. She describes life as a dance between her neurology and her biology, her spirit and her body, her intellect and her emotional life. With a fellow master teacher of embodiment, she is creating a soul-sourced embodiment practice that encompasses body, mind, heart and soul, and she describes soul as an acronym: source of unconditional love. Her whole thing is inclusion, and she is a mom of two boys she delights in watching become men.

What emerged

Alexis Artin explains that comfort often comes from people's strategies to self-regulate, while belonging comes from the ability to co-regulate, which humans learn from the very start of life. She sees everything existing in balance, and when she looks for the balance in something she has held a charge about, the charge is gone and she is left with unconditional love and gratitude. When she reflects that Niiamah Ashong's family is the ground for his expanding work, he realizes that his family and his creating are playing the same game rather than taking time from each other. She closes with the story of a dance-off she was sure she'd won, a moment that taught her to interrogate her assumptions.

Questions this episode answers

What's the difference between comfort and belonging?

Alexis Artin says comfort often comes from people's strategies and their ability to self-regulate, while belonging comes from the ability to co-regulate. Humans are a co-regulated species: when a caregiver rocks, feeds and calms an infant, the caregiver's nervous system teaches the baby's that it's safe and that its needs are going to be met.

What is the difference between collaboration and co-creation?

Niiamah Ashong describes collaboration as splitting 100 percent between people, 50/50 or 60/40, toward a shared goal. Co-creation is both people bringing their full 100 percent into something that has never been here, which somehow adds up to more than 200.

How can finding balance release an emotional charge?

Alexis Artin says a judgment is one-sided and not in equilibrium. When she looks for and finds the balance, integrating the parts left out of the narrative she has been holding, the emotional charge is gone and she is left with nothing but unconditional love and gratitude.

Can a leader expand their work while staying grounded in family?

When Niiamah Ashong wondered what roots would support his expanding work, Alexis Artin pointed out that his family is his ground, and that in providing for, protecting and showing up for them he is expanding. He realized he is strengthened in his creation when he's with his family and strengthened in his family when he's creating.

Why should leaders question their assumptions?

Alexis Artin was certain she had won a dance-off during a team game, yet her opponent refused to sit down and Alexis ended up out of the game. She says the quality of a person's life is based on the quality of their questions, and that pausing to ask 'what if that's not the truth' can flip a whole world upside down.

In their words

Are you part of the dance or are you being a wallflower, just letting it, you know, ride without you?

Alexis Artin

Be grounded, steady yourself, but the deeper the roots, the wider the wings.

Alexis Artin

The quality of your life is based on the quality of your questions.

Alexis Artin

Key moments

01:34 – A car ride and belonging

03:07 – Comfort versus belonging

05:44 – Collaboration versus co-creation

10:27 – Life as a dance

11:30 – A soul-sourced embodiment practice

14:07 – Soul as source of unconditional love

17:48 – Everything exists in balance

22:29 – Deeper roots, wider wings

24:35 – Family as the roots

37:43 – The dance-off story

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Andrea Pantig, a mother who leads an online work team with her husband, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about her mission: helping people achieve financial and time freedom to do what they love most and spend more time with the people they love. When Niiamah asks her to say her mission again, she finds that slowing down makes it feel so real and gives her a new idea every time she says it. What emerged, as Niiamah reflected back to her, is that she is about freedom itself, and that people surprise her when she gives them that freedom.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Andrea Pantig, Mother who leads an online work team with her husband
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released November 1, 2022
• Format: conversation, 54 minutes
• Topics: Living her mission, Financial and time freedom, Family first, Leading by example, Freedom as team culture, Upskilling for online work

What Andrea brought to the conversation

Andrea Pantig puts family first, and she describes herself first as a mother, a wife and a daughter. Her mission came to life when her son was born: she resigned from her job to stay home with him and moved into the digital space, where her husband had been freelancing since they graduated. Four years later she and her team teach and coach people to work online, from the skills and tools to being comfortable with English, acing interviews and being confident in themselves. A constant achiever and valedictorian in school, she chose a path that wasn't the popular choice in her country, and the way she lives now sparks curiosity in the people around her.

What emerged

The shift came when Andrea Pantig moved from convincing people to simply living her mission, so people could see her at home with her family, comfortable in life, and come asking what she does. Niiamah Ashong reflected that she is about more than financial and time freedom: she is about freedom, and about giving people the chance to use it. She compares it to holding a bird in her palm without clutching it, and she has found that people surprise her when given that freedom, like a teammate who turned out to enjoy design and is now another designer on the team.

Questions this episode answers

How do you inspire people to change how they work without convincing them?

Andrea Pantig found it difficult to convince people who didn't see results, so she chose to live the mission instead. People could see her at home, comfortable in life and present for her family, and now they ask what she does, with not much convincing needed.

What happens when a leader gives their team freedom?

Andrea Pantig says that people given freedom use it to work more because they appreciate the person who gave it, while strictness can make people leave even when they love the job. A teammate she gave the chance and the tools to try design enjoyed it more than her other tasks, and now the team has another designer.

Why slow down when you say your mission out loud?

When Niiamah Ashong asked Andrea Pantig to say her mission a second time, she found that slowing down made her breathe in on everything she was saying and internalize it. She says it felt so real and gives her a new idea every time she says it about how to make it real for people.

How can a team help experienced professionals move into online work?

Andrea Pantig and her team coach people on the skills and tools for online work, on being comfortable with the English language and on how to ace interviews, and also on being confident in themselves. She notes that going back to being a new applicant after years in a tenured job can feel vulnerable, and her team is there to support them.

Why does continuous learning matter in online work?

Andrea Pantig says working online always involves upskilling, learning new things and learning new tools, because everything is changing in the online world and anyone who stops learning gets left behind. She has seen an engineer, after seeing what her team does, open up to learning a tool that could help him work online too.

In their words

My mission is to help people to achieve financial and time freedom to do what they love most and to spend more time with the people they love.

Andrea Pantig

Slowing things down makes you breathe in on every thing that you're saying and really, really internalize it.

Andrea Pantig

The more that you give people freedom, the more that they are happy working, doing things that they love.

Andrea Pantig

Key moments

02:38 – How Niiamah sees Andrea

06:46 – Her mission of financial and time freedom

07:47 – Saying the mission slowly

14:01 – Playing and teaching the team

15:05 – A mission born with her son

21:47 – From convincing to living the mission

24:21 – Teaching people to fish

32:49 – Choosing the less popular path

40:41 – Opening up possibilities

46:55 – Freedom like a bird in the palm

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Samantha Venia Logan, a consultant who helps organizations build online communities, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about the process of finding an identity. She shares her own story of finding her identity, the psychology of how people learn who they are, and why that process is messy. What emerged is how following the yeses leads a person to places they never imagined, and how relationships can be repaired from that new place.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Samantha Venia Logan, Consultant who helps organizations build online communities
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released October 27, 2022
• Format: conversation, 40 minutes
• Topics: Reframing intimidation, Finding an identity, Learning schema theory, Following the yeses, Share of voice in a room, Repairing burned bridges

What Samantha brought to the conversation

Samantha Venia Logan stepped publicly into who she is as a student, got bold about it and went on to launch her own YouTube channel. At 21 she was the youngest person in the room at a major summit full of CEOs and executive directors changing the world. She says she is known for connecting theory and principle to everyday concepts, and she built a consultancy that helps organizations build online communities and galvanize their audiences, then turned that expertise into an e-course for community managers and executive directors. Niiamah Ashong describes her as well versed in what she leads, with an alignment that is unapologetic and natural.

What emerged

The central insight is that identity is learned through a series of yeses and noes, which is why finding a new one is messy. Samantha Venia Logan explains that when an environment gives a person only noes, restlessness pushes them to leave and find their yeses, and following that takes them to places they never imagined. She also learned to use her presence in a room with intention: if she wanted to be a giant in her industry, she needed other people to stand on her shoulders. On repairing relationships, she says a reckoning has very little to do with the person someone hurt and everything to do with whether they let themselves feel it.

Questions this episode answers

Why is finding a new identity so messy?

Samantha Venia Logan explains identity through learning schema theory, a psychological theory in which a schema works like a set of yes or no logic gates people use to learn who they are over time. When a person grows up surrounded by noes and then finally finds a yes, the shift can be intense, and none of it is neat, clean or orderly.

How do you find what you truly enjoy when your environment keeps saying no?

Samantha Venia Logan says a person's emotions will tell them, as a restlessness and a feeling that they can't remain in their own skin. She calls it grapevine identity, after grapevine communication, where ideas come from outside the structured channels, and says the only way to find the yeses is to leave the environment where all a person is getting is noes.

Can being called intimidating be a good thing?

Niiamah Ashong shares that when someone told him even his joy is intimidating, he felt free and chose to use it rather than spend energy trying not to come off that way. Samantha Venia Logan says seeing intimidation as something intriguing because it is not yet known will change how she looks back on relationships where she heard she was intimidating.

How can a leader with a strong presence use it well?

Samantha Venia Logan says it is easy for her to fill a room, so she checks her share of voice and asks what she is doing with that space. She learned that if she wanted to be a giant in her industry, she needed to find other people to stand on her shoulders.

How do you repair a relationship after a period of distance?

Samantha Venia Logan's main tool is radical candor that removes emotional mitigation, sitting in the moment so the emotion can come out. She has repaired relationships she once thought could never be repaired, including a friend she now laughs and bonds with over mimosas every Saturday.

In their words

None of that is neat and clean and orderly, it's super super messy.

Samantha Venia Logan

If I wanted to be a giant in my industry, I needed to find other people to stand on my shoulders.

Samantha Venia Logan

If you follow that notion you're going to take yourself to places you never imagined you could.

Samantha Venia Logan

Key moments

02:07 – A leader who is well versed

03:40 – Reframing what intimidating means

07:17 – Her story begins at 18

09:25 – What she calls the phase

11:31 – Youngest in a room of CEOs

12:02 – Others standing on her shoulders

17:13 – Learning schema theory explained

23:03 – Grapevine identity and finding yeses

30:52 – Repairing burned bridges

35:36 – Building online communities

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Yasmin Vorajee, who has run her own business for more than a decade helping clients with their marketing, messaging and strategy, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about comparison, grace and following your joy. She explains why she always looks for the backstory behind someone's quick success, and how letting go of where clients will come from opened her to opportunities she never expected. What emerged is a shared recognition that both of them are much further along than they give themselves credit for.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Yasmin Vorajee, Business owner, author and teacher who helps clients with their marketing, messaging and strategy
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released October 25, 2022
• Format: conversation, 49 minutes
• Topics: Knowing the backstory, Grace instead of comparison, Presence in client work, Following your joy, Detaching from the outcome, Sharing your message anyway

What Yasmin brought to the conversation

Yasmin Vorajee is a mother of three who loves cooking and talking with her children as they grow up. After 12 years in corporate, including work in training and HR, she started her own business in 2012, teaching herself to build landing pages before today's tools existed, and she now helps clients find the words for their marketing, messaging and strategy. She sees herself as a teacher, loves webinars, workshops and challenges, and has written a book. Niiamah Ashong remembers meeting her at a conference a few years earlier and being struck by how centered she is: practical, not about hyperbole, and a living example of what works.

What emerged

The central tool is the backstory: Yasmin Vorajee always looks for what sits behind someone's quick success, such as a whole machine behind them, prior experience or financial support, because without it, comparison takes over. Niiamah Ashong shares a saying from his mentor, that people often compare how they feel on the inside with how others look on the outside, and both of them name the voice that says they should be further along. Her answer is grace: she did the very best she could with what she had and what she knew, and releasing the need to know where clients will come from has been one of her biggest lessons.

Questions this episode answers

How can a leader stop comparing themselves to others online?

Yasmin Vorajee always looks for the backstory, because nobody starts from just doing it and it being amazing. Many people who seem to have succeeded quickly had a whole machine behind them, prior experience or financial support, and knowing that lets her give herself grace instead of expecting so much.

Why detach from where clients will come from?

A mentor helped Yasmin Vorajee see that just the act of putting something out there and sharing can bring clients through completely different avenues than expected. She realized she had been so attached to how they would come that she wasn't open to all the different ways they could come to her.

Do likes and comments show whether marketing is working?

Yasmin Vorajee tells clients they're not posting for the comments or the likes, because there are lurkers who watch without ever engaging. On a recent sales call, a prospective client told her she watched all her videos and felt as if they'd already had the conversation.

How can a coach be fully present with clients?

A few minutes before client calls, Yasmin Vorajee says a short prayer to be fully present, so that whatever needs to come through her to them comes through like a clear channel. She has found that putting herself under pressure to have all the answers doesn't work for her.

How can positive relationships lead to new business?

Yasmin Vorajee wants every interaction she has to be a positive one. At a networking event, she gave the keynote speaker, whom she knew through a professional speaking association, a copy of her book as a gift, and the speaker then asked her to deliver training for their company.

In their words

I was so attached to how they would come that I wasn't open to the possibility of all the different ways that they could come to me.

Yasmin Vorajee

That's not why you're doing it, though. You're not doing it for the comments, you're not doing it for the likes.

Yasmin Vorajee

I am standing on the shoulders of giants.

Yasmin Vorajee

Key moments

01:34 – First meeting at a conference

08:17 – From corporate to her own business

11:24 – Always looking for the backstory

13:58 – A prayer to be fully present

16:06 – A teacher since childhood

17:42 – Detaching from the outcome

22:24 – Not posting for the likes

28:45 – Standing on the shoulders of giants

33:56 – Further along than they think

39:34 – A gifted book opens a door

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Mike Harris, a coach and woodworker who championed Niiamah Ashong as he was building his coaching business, joins him on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about setting both the best foot and the worst foot forward. The conversation moves from straight talk over sounding deep to woodworking as a practice of self-forgiveness. What emerged is self-forgiveness as an active practice: catching the mistake, cleaning it up, and playing both roles at once.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Mike Harris, Coach and woodworker
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released October 20, 2022
• Format: conversation, 48 minutes
• Topics: Best foot and worst foot forward, Straight talk over sounding deep, Learning through implementation, Woodworking as a practice, Self-forgiveness as a practice, Playing both roles inside ourselves

What Mike brought to the conversation

Mike Harris has been woodworking for 15 years. He picked it up out of necessity to fix his own home, found the art in it, and made pieces to give as gifts; about a year before this conversation, at his wife's suggestion, he put a shop together again and turned it into a business. He has had a lot of coaching conversations over the years, and Niiamah Ashong credits him with championing him as he figured out how to build a coaching business. Years ago Mike walked Niiamah through a process for naming the context, vision and results of how he wanted to create himself as a leader, and Niiamah still listens to the result as his manifesto.

What emerged

The central shift is in how self-forgiveness actually works. Mike Harris describes forgiveness as the lever: when he makes a mistake in the shop, he catches the instinct to be hard on himself, tells himself it's okay, and cleans it up, and the cleanup is part of the forgiveness. Niiamah Ashong, who asked to explore the topic, tried it out in real time and saw that on an unconventional path that forgiveness needs to come from within, with a new level of levity. Mike Harris adds that people play two roles inside themselves all the time, the one giving judgment, acceptance or forgiveness and the one receiving it, and that becoming aware of that dance is the foundation of creating the present moment and the future.

Questions this episode answers

Why does a polished best foot forward sometimes land less than the unpolished version?

Mike Harris says much of what people call their best foot forward is manufactured and rehearsed, and not quite who they are. Someone once told him she could tell when he was trying to sound deep, and he noticed that when he just says what's on his mind in a straightforward way, even stumbling through it, that is sometimes the most impactful thing for someone else.

Why can a leader hear something new in the same book after many listens?

Niiamah Ashong has listened to one mentor's book probably over 30 times, and the words never change. What changes is whether he has implemented it: after trying it in his life, he comes back as a different person hearing the same thing. Mike Harris adds that conceptually many things feel profound, but experientially everything is profound.

What does self-forgiveness look like in practice?

Mike Harris has been woodworking for 15 years and still makes at least a little mistake on every piece. In the example he gives, when he cuts an extra two inches off a piece, he catches the instinct to be hard on himself, tells himself it's okay, and cleans it up, and he sees the cleanup as part of the forgiveness. He plays both roles: the forgiver and the one being forgiven.

How is self-forgiveness different from self-acceptance?

Niiamah Ashong asked Mike Harris exactly this. Mike said forgiveness feels like the lever, because something specific happened, and he compared it to a five-year-old knocking over a drink at the dinner table, where cleaning it up together says not only that the child is forgiven but that someone has their back.

Why does self-forgiveness matter for leaders on unconventional paths?

Niiamah Ashong says self-forgiveness matters especially when leaders are doing things that are a first for them or have never been done before. It is one thing to have a parental figure say it's okay and all is forgiven, and another to reach the stage where that needs to come from within, and he found a new level of levity in playing that role for himself.

In their words

Conceptually there are a lot of things that feel profound, but experientially everything's profound.

Mike Harris

And then we clean it up, and the cleanup is part of the forgiveness.

Mike Harris

Key moments

00:31 – A longtime champion joins the show

04:41 – Best foot and worst foot forward

08:19 – Straight talk over sounding deep

10:54 – Hearing the same book differently

17:09 – Coming back to woodworking

18:43 – Self-forgiveness at the workbench

28:40 – Where his self-forgiveness practice began

33:57 – The cleanup is part of forgiveness

39:37 – Playing both roles inside ourselves

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Steven Mays, a biohacker who sees life as a game, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about bringing play into work. He shares how he gamifies growth with bite-sized steps, simple brain games and clear ways to keep score, while Niiamah Ashong applies it in real time to the monthly quests he is designing at Outlier's Edge. What emerged is a three-step way to turn a heavy goal into a game: make it fun, keep it bite-sized, and measure the wins.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Steven Mays, Biohacker who sees life as a game
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released October 18, 2022
• Format: conversation, 41 minutes
• Topics: Life as a game, Fun as part of the process, Bite-sized wins, Training an adaptable brain, Replacing work with play, Keeping score with standards and metrics

What Steven brought to the conversation

Steven Mays describes his mission as being creative and playful, exploring his imagination and sharing it with others. What makes him distinct, beyond any title or his role as a father, is gamifying things: to him life is a game, and he wants to play rather than sit on the sidelines. He is building a biohacking brand, trains his own brain with simple ball games that build adaptability, and works from a framework with five pillars, one of which is recovery. Niiamah Ashong sees in him a distinct presence and someone who keeps investing in his own growth.

What emerged

The central insight is that play and results aren't opposites. Listening to Steven Mays, Niiamah Ashong saw that a game can deliver the same outcome as a KPI while feeling completely different to pursue, and he left with at least four ways to bring that into his client work and the monthly quests at Outlier's Edge. Steven Mays framed why it works: a person's state right now is what creates the future, so engaging fun, creativity and playfulness in the present moment is how the vision gets built.

Questions this episode answers

How can a leader gamify a big goal?

Steven Mays uses three steps: make it fun from the onset, because fun is part of the process; make it bite-sized so it's easy to say yes to; and set the standards and metrics to measure wins and losses by. Repeating that cycle reinforces a person's belief that they can make things happen, and three days like that build momentum.

Why do small steps work better than big leaps?

Steven Mays says a grand vision can feel like so much that people do nothing today, while three small steps give momentum and are like the equivalent of a big step. For a proposal 12 times larger than usual, he would start with just three outbound phone calls to people who would be fun to connect with. Niiamah Ashong compares it to building muscle: as the muscles get stronger, the same effort carries further.

How can play make work feel lighter?

Steven Mays notices that words like work, payroll and boss can feel heavy and bring up an image of stress, so he tried replacing work with play in how he describes things. Describing a situation in a way that keeps him playful lets him think creatively and have more influence over the outcome, even if the game that day is simply encouraging three co-workers.

What does a simple ball game have to do with business?

Steven Mays uses ball games, like tossing a ball from hand to hand so it crosses his midline, to keep his brain adaptable, and he treats every drop as positive reinforcement because the brain learns from it. He says that what works with the ball works in business too: with calls, with leads and with enrollment.

Why play a game when you can't predict the outcome?

Steven Mays says that's the point: anything can happen in a game, which is where the fun and excitement lie, and people still play even when they try to predict the result. Niiamah Ashong holds a similar view of his own work: it isn't about the outcome but about creating a space where something different can occur.

In their words

If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

Steven Mays

Three small steps give you momentum, and that's like the equivalent of taking a big step.

Steven Mays

Every time you drop the ball it's actually a positive thing, it's positive reinforcement for your brain.

Steven Mays

Key moments

05:40 – Creating the sandbox

09:18 – Life is a game

12:25 – Anything can happen in a game

13:26 – Designing monthly quests

16:02 – Fun first, then bite size

17:37 – Three outbound calls to start

21:49 – Games that train the brain

29:02 – Living from the vision now

32:42 – Replacing work with play

35:17 – Three steps to gamify anything

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Dr. Erin Baker, author of Joy-Full AF: The Essential Business Strategy We're Afraid to Put First, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about joy as the ground of real success. Erin Baker draws a clear line between happiness, which depends on circumstance, and joy, which comes from within and can sit alongside sorrow, grief and challenge. What emerged is a practical picture of joy in business: keep the joy tank topped up the way you stay hydrated, follow your joy in how you do the work, and the success will come.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Dr. Erin Baker, Author of Joy-Full AF: The Essential Business Strategy We're Afraid to Put First, who works with entrepreneurs on putting joy first
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released October 13, 2022
• Format: conversation, 46 minutes
• Topics: Joy versus happiness, Joy-full: the full range of human experience, The joy tank, Writing a book with joy, Going all in, Joy as a business strategy

What Dr. brought to the conversation

Dr. Erin Baker released a first book, Joy-Full AF, about three weeks before this September 2022 conversation, and sees joy as both a deep truth about running any form of business and a bigger movement. A recovering academic who wrote a PhD dissertation and worked as a user researcher, Erin Baker works with a lot of entrepreneurs, having seen how many start a business for joy only for joy to be the first thing de-prioritized. The aim is to help every single person have joy in everything they do. Niiamah Ashong describes someone who brings play, speaks truth to power and goes all in, unapologetic and experimental.

What emerged

The central distinction is that happiness happens based on circumstance and is usually fleeting, while joy comes from within and can be accessed at any point, even in pain, grief or challenge. Erin Baker writes joy-full with f-u-l-l to name that fullness: coming back to who you are and allowing the fullness of your humanity to show up in everything you do. Niiamah Ashong says the way the book was created, all in on joy, showed him where he could go further in his own business, and Erin Baker explains that the starting point was refusing to do anything without being all in, which made the question what to be all in on.

Questions this episode answers

What is the difference between joy and happiness?

Dr. Erin Baker says happiness happens based on circumstance, like a job promotion or a big life event, and is usually a pretty fleeting thing. Joy comes from within, doesn't need an external circumstance and can be accessed at any point.

Can a person feel joy and sorrow at the same time?

Erin Baker says yes: people can feel joy and sorrow, joy and grief, and joy in going through the pain of challenge, fear and risk. Sitting with a client who is mid tears, Erin Baker can feel so much joy at getting to be present to their humanity.

How does a leader sustain joy in business over the long term?

Erin Baker pictures a joy tank that works less like a gas tank you refill on empty and more like hydration, where the whole idea is to stay hydrated at all times. Keeping the tank continually full also expands your capacity for more joy, and Erin Baker adds that misery in business is not sustainable.

How can joy shape the way the work itself gets done?

While writing the book, Erin Baker noticed the joy drained away in a word processor, while things flowed when posting online and in conversation. So Erin Baker paced the office recording bite-sized pieces as voice-to-text conversations, and the story of the book emerged from them.

What usually gets in the way of joy?

Erin Baker says that what so often gets in the way of joy is beliefs about how things are supposed to be done, such as the idea that a good writer sits down at a word processor. Writing the book meant confronting all the beliefs that came up about what it meant to be a real writer.

In their words

Joy comes from within. It doesn't need an external circumstance.

Dr. Erin Baker

Every time I pursue my joy, I find more of who I am.

Dr. Erin Baker

I'm not handing you a map to joy. I'm giving you all the tools to develop your own map, your own path to joy.

Dr. Erin Baker

Key moments

07:18 – A first book about joy

08:25 – Why entrepreneurs lose their joy

13:09 – Joy and happiness are different

15:44 – Joy-full and the full range

17:48 – Seeking joy and finding yourself

20:26 – The joy tank and hydration

24:04 – Joy that can intimidate others

29:13 – Talking the book into existence

34:56 – What are you all in on

41:11 – Your own map to joy

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Mike Giampa, a partner in a consulting deals practice, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about leading a whole life while doing high-pressure work. He shares how he takes care of himself first so he can show up fully when work demands it, and why that balance is a model for the people coming up behind him. What emerged is his drive to keep creating new challenges for himself, from new career paths after making partner to learning to cook.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Mike Giampa, Partner in a consulting deals practice
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released October 11, 2022
• Format: conversation, 30 minutes
• Topics: Leading a whole life, Connection with clients and teams, Modeling balance for others, New paths after making partner, Betting on himself, Play, practice and new challenges

What Mike brought to the conversation

Mike Giampa always loved math and started his career as a retirement actuary at the intersection of math and business, then moved fairly quickly into mergers and acquisitions deals in the HR space. He earned his MBA, changed firms about eight years ago, and made partner about four years ago. What he loves most about his work is the connection with his clients and his team, and he says clients who feel that connection see him as a partner rather than a service provider. Outside work he puts real focus on his family of four kids and his wife of almost 15 years, and on his own needs, from basketball and lifting weights to playing video games with his cousin.

What emerged

The central idea is the order Mike Giampa chooses: like putting on his own oxygen mask first, he takes care of himself, and because he does, he can show up fully when work runs late. Niiamah Ashong noticed him change his language from 'when I can do that' to 'because I can do that.' Mike Giampa sees modeling that balance as critical to the success of the firm, since a leader who models a life where work takes over gives people a reason to stay a little while rather than aspire to the next level. Niiamah calls Mike's need for new challenges an outlier mentality, and Mike describes making partner as the start of a whole new set of paths rather than an ending.

Questions this episode answers

How can a leader keep work from taking over their life?

Mike Giampa says work will keep taking more and more from anyone who keeps saying yes, so leaders have to create those boundaries for themselves. He takes care of himself first, with basketball, lifting weights and video games with his cousin, so that when work needs long hours he can show up for it.

Why does a senior leader's lifestyle matter to their team?

Mike Giampa says a firm needs its senior associates and managers to aspire to be directors and partners. If leaders model a life where they work way too hard and everything else suffers, most people will do it for a little while but won't stick around for another 10 years.

What happens after you reach the top level at a firm?

Mike Giampa found that making partner opened a whole new career path, where a partner might be asked to move to another country, start a new practice or take on leadership roles. He raised his hand, made the right connections and got those opportunities, and he is excited about how his career will evolve over the next five to 15 years.

How do you take a leap of faith in your career?

When Mike Giampa changed firms after nine years, he took a leap of faith, putting the relationships and reputation he had built behind him and starting over. He says he keeps betting on himself, with the confidence that he can excel at whatever challenge he takes on, and that with the right mentality that bet gets rewarded.

How can a leader get good at something they've never been good at?

Mike Giampa once named cooking as something he didn't excel at, until he asked why not and started with simple recipes and pre-packaged ingredients. He says that like anything in life, it's about practice, working hard and sticking with it, and he now makes dishes like risotto.

In their words

If there's no balance, if you're not kind of happy holistically, then it's just gonna, honestly, it's gonna wear you out and wear you down and burn you out.

Mike Giampa

You got to keep betting on yourself. You got to be willing to keep betting on yourself.

Mike Giampa

If it starts with play, I'm in.

Mike Giampa

Key moments

01:03 – How Niiamah sees Mike

04:11 – From actuary to deals partner

05:12 – Connecting with clients and team

07:46 – Creating a balanced life

08:49 – Putting on his own oxygen mask first

11:21 – Modeling a life worth aspiring to

14:56 – New paths after making partner

18:32 – Betting on himself

22:09 – If it starts with play

23:10 – Learning to cook as a challenge

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

Work with Niiamah: 1:1 with Niiamah | World of Difference

Continue into Outlier’s Edge World:

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