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Jeannette Meier, an advocate for socially conscious leadership and co-creation, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about allowing oneself to be and living from the heart. They explore the difference between holding space and creating space, a practice Niiamah calls active meditation, and why being oneself has to be experienced rather than only understood. What emerged is a simple path: explore, experience and practice being oneself.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Jeannette Meier, Advocate for socially conscious leadership and co-creation, with a community where people explore, experience and practice being who they are
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released June 7, 2022
• Format: conversation, 45 minutes
• Topics: Creating space versus holding space, Living from the heart, Active meditation, Explore, experience, practice, Socially conscious leadership, Co-creation versus collaboration

What Jeannette brought to the conversation

Jeannette Meier champions socially conscious leadership: the idea that every person can lead from the inside out by being themselves and by loving, valuing and respecting themselves and everyone else. Through her community, people explore, experience and practice being the leader they are, in conversation and in daily life. Niiamah Ashong describes her as someone who has created success in traditional ways and actively chooses to create beyond that, and who creates new distinctions for everyday experiences, like the difference between collaboration and co-creation. Her habit of listening, sharing and speaking from the heart, which Niiamah named active meditation, is something she practices in her conversations and reminds herself to return to whenever she can.

What emerged

The conversation became a practice in itself. Rather than only talk about presence, Niiamah Ashong and Jeannette Meier paused to breathe from the heart together, and the exchange shifted from understanding to experience. Jeannette's central point is that being oneself can't be grasped with the mind alone: it comes through exploring, experiencing and practicing, unlearning old patterns until it lives inside a person. Niiamah named a major insight about the importance of experience, after noting earlier that unpacking what comes naturally lets other people come along.

Questions this episode answers

What is the difference between holding space and creating space?

Niiamah Ashong sees safety as a platform: people can come in, feel safe and held, and leave almost exactly the same, or they can use that safety to expand, grow, play and challenge themselves and come out more transformed. Jeannette Meier adds that when people allow themselves to be, in freedom and safety, they grow and expand by learning with themselves and with whoever they're in relationship with.

What is active meditation?

It's the name Niiamah Ashong gave to Jeannette Meier's practice of already being in her heart, listening, so she doesn't need extra time to relax or close her eyes. She says it can be done at any moment, in any conversation, at work, at home or on a bus: going into the heart and listening, sharing and speaking from there. Niiamah tried it himself by becoming fully mindful of a simple breakfast before his first conversation of the day.

How do you get into the heart space?

Jeannette Meier shifts her point of view into the heart and starts feeling what she feels there. The heart opens, she becomes more aware of what's happening around her and of her own emotions, and feeling leads instead of thinking. She stresses there are infinite ways to connect to the heart, so each person has to explore their own.

How does a person learn to be fully themselves?

Jeannette Meier says it has to be experienced to be understood: by exploring, experiencing and practicing being who they are, people unlearn old patterns and expand. In her view, each person is their own leader and teacher in life. Niiamah Ashong connects this to the four stages of competence, from not knowing to doing something so naturally it no longer takes thought.

What is socially conscious leadership?

Jeannette Meier believes every human can be a socially conscious leader by living from the inside out, allowing themselves to be uniquely perfectly imperfect, and loving, respecting and valuing themselves and everyone else. She distinguishes co-creation from collaboration: collaboration can be an exchange, while co-creation is a dance of giving and receiving where 100 and 100 can create 300 and more.

In their words

Go into the heart and listen from there, share from there, speak from there.

Jeannette Meier

You are your own teacher in life, you are the one that is going to learn for yourself or unlearn for yourself.

Jeannette Meier

If we are in our freedom to be who we are and create what we love, we positively impact our surrounding and our world.

Jeannette Meier

Key moments

02:03 – Creating new distinctions

07:15 – Creative space versus holding space

09:19 – Balancing giving and receiving

11:23 – Breathing from the heart together

14:28 – Naming active meditation

21:41 – How to reach the heart space

28:23 – Explore, experience and practice

34:32 – Feel it instead of analyzing

38:39 – What socially conscious leadership means

39:40 – Co-creation versus collaboration

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Les Watson, a time management, productivity and small business coach, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about finding his life's purpose and helping leaders reach their next level. He shares how a single why question, asked again and again, led him to name his purpose after 50 years. What emerged is a simple practice for leaders: look at yourself first, be supportable, and ask for the support you need.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Les Watson, Time management, productivity and small business coach
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released June 7, 2022
• Format: conversation, 44 minutes
• Topics: Finding your life's purpose, The why question, Self-reflection as a leader, Being supportable and asking for help, Ego and receiving support, Creating products that stand on their own

What Les brought to the conversation

Les Watson helps leaders fine-tune themselves so they can create change, by looking at what is working, what isn't, and what they can do differently. He works with everyone from multinationals to the corner store, with a focus on entrepreneurs, solopreneurs and small business owners who are ready for the next level. When his face-to-face work was shut down, he moved a program online, ran it five times in a year, and turned it into a coaching program built on about 90 videos. He also wrote the manuscript for his book over 12 months, a little bit every day, and is now creating new products on goal setting and goal attainment.

What emerged

The central idea is that purpose comes from a process, not a two-hour workshop. Les Watson found his when his wife kept asking him why he does what he does until he landed on a single phrase: he does it to bring life. Niiamah Ashong drew out that the real work is carving out time to treat the question seriously, with someone who brings deep curiosity. On support, Les Watson noticed that in a room everyone is willing to give support and almost no one is willing to ask, and he names the ego as what gets in the way.

Questions this episode answers

How can a leader find their life's purpose?

Les Watson says it is a process, and most people are never shown one. He found his by sitting down with his wife, who kept asking why he does what he does until he reached a single word or phrase at the core, and he encourages people not to let go until they find it.

Is it too late to find your purpose later in life?

Les Watson found his purpose at 50 and says the same structure of questions can be given to someone at 18 or at 50. He also notes people take it in at different speeds: in one couple he worked with, one partner found their purpose in an hour and the other took three weeks.

Why do leaders find it hard to ask for support?

Les Watson points to the ego, the puffed chest that says everything is fine when it isn't, and the worry that others will think less of you. He says leaders need to notice when the ego gets in the way and let it go.

What are the keys to getting support as a leader?

Les Watson names two: be supportable, by letting in the support people are already offering, and ask for it. He surrounds himself with groups, chambers of commerce and a monthly business group where he can ask the hard questions.

Why should leaders start with self-reflection?

Les Watson says the way to stand out is to look at yourself and ask what is working, what isn't, and what you can do differently, so you become an example others can follow. Niiamah Ashong adds that looking at yourself is one of the shortest paths to whatever outcome a leader wants.

In their words

I do it to bring life.

Les Watson

Number one is be supportable and number two is ask for it.

Les Watson

Everyone's willing to give support and no one's wanting to ask.

Les Watson

Key moments

03:07 – Fine-tuning leaders to create change

06:46 – Made a manager without training

09:22 – Starting his company again

11:25 – Finding his purpose at 50

12:27 – His purpose is to bring life

18:40 – Finding your own truth

22:49 – Taking a program online

25:24 – Writing a book in 12 months

29:03 – Surrounding himself with support

33:46 – When the ego gets in the way

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Fulfillment Obi, who helps people step out of mediocrity toward their destiny and purpose, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about living a life of greatness. He shares the daily decisions that transformed him over the course of a year and how he brings others along by letting his own greatness show. What emerged is the idea of being a beacon rather than a brand, and a next level of greatness built on the capacity to handle pressure.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Fulfillment Obi, Helps people step out of mediocrity toward their destiny and purpose
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released May 31, 2022
• Format: conversation, 43 minutes
• Topics: A life of greatness, Being a beacon, not a brand, Leading with your strength, One step closer every day, No shortcuts to transformation, Building capacity for pressure

What Fulfillment brought to the conversation

Fulfillment Obi wants every human being to be able to live a life of greatness, and greatness runs through everything he teaches. He leads an organization and hosts a weekly podcast about self-improvement, where he teaches people how to live the best life they can, work with their purpose and produce tangible results in whatever they do. His turning point came when he gained clarity that he had something to offer the world: he wrote down what he wanted to do, asked himself every morning what changes he could make in his daily life, and read about six books a month while putting what he learned into practice. Over a year, he says, he transformed into another person and began to see opportunities he couldn't see before.

What emerged

Niiamah Ashong hears in Fulfillment Obi's approach the idea of being a beacon rather than a brand: knowing your greatness, growing that seed and letting it shine outward so the people in alignment are drawn in. Fulfillment Obi adds that no one needs everything settled before they shine, because leading with the strength you have gives you room to grow in other areas. The transformation he describes took real work over time rather than a shortcut, and his next level of greatness is about building the capacity to handle pressure, critics and more complex decisions, and taking his content up a level.

Questions this episode answers

How can a leader keep the bar at greatness while still bringing people in?

Fulfillment Obi says it takes consistency and intention over time. People look at the leader's life, so the leader must first show an element of greatness, something people don't see in anybody else, and keep building themselves so they can feed the people they lead.

Do you need to have everything figured out before you share your gifts?

Fulfillment Obi says no: if someone is a strong public speaker but still learning to lead, they should anchor on that strength while they build the rest. Waiting until everything is settled cuts away a lot of opportunities, while using the part of you that can shine gives you the opportunity to grow in other areas.

How do you transform yourself in a way that lasts?

Fulfillment Obi asked himself every morning what he could do to get closer to the life he wanted, read widely and made what he read practical in his daily life, and after a year he noticed a drastic shift. He warns against shortcuts and says a person has to be willing to do whatever it takes and walk their own unique path, even if they are slower than someone else.

What is the difference between being a beacon and being a brand?

Niiamah Ashong describes a brand as asking who you need to be for others to like you, while a beacon starts with knowing your own greatness, growing that seed and letting it radiate outward. People who are in alignment then get the chance to find it and be guided.

How can a leader build the capacity to handle pressure as they grow?

Niiamah Ashong talks about building the capacity of his nervous system, including a 17-minute exercise that helps him handle discomfort in his body. Fulfillment Obi returns to highlighted passages from a book that prepared his mind for pressure, talks with his family and mentors, exercises daily and makes time for activities that release the pressure.

In their words

I wanted every human being to be able to live a life of greatness.

Fulfillment Obi

Being a beacon versus being a brand.

Niiamah Ashong

You might be a little slower than somebody else but that doesn't mean that you won't eventually get there.

Fulfillment Obi

Key moments

02:07 – What Fulfillment Obi is creating

03:40 – A life of greatness for everyone

05:45 – Keeping the bar at greatness

08:51 – Glimpses of greatness

11:29 – Being a beacon, not a brand

12:30 – Leading with your strength

16:07 – The day clarity arrived

20:14 – One step closer every day

24:23 – No shortcuts, whatever it takes

29:33 – Building capacity for pressure

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Cordelia Gaffar, a coach, author and podcast host who calls herself the world's best joy monger, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about operating from a baseline of joy. She shares how she transmutes rage into joy through research, writing and poetry, and why she tells clients to talk to the person rather than the journal. What emerged is the importance of receiving yourself: she is the only one who needs to validate her.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Cordelia Gaffar, Coach, author and podcast host who calls herself the world's best joy monger
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released May 24, 2022
• Format: conversation, 56 minutes
• Topics: A baseline of joy, Nurturing yourself first, Transmuting rage into joy, Talk to the person, not the journal, Receiving yourself, Commitment over understanding

What Cordelia brought to the conversation

Cordelia Gaffar calls herself the world's best joy monger, and she operates from what she describes as a baseline of joy. She says an extension of her mothering is the foundation of her work, because without nurturing who she is and who she's being, she can't nurture anyone else. She hosts two podcasts, one questioning whether her thinking is truly free and one exploring the labels people get placed in, and she won a podcast host of the year award. She has written eight books, is working on two more including a book of poetry, and coaches one-on-one while creating experiences that take people outside their comfort zone.

What emerged

The shift Cordelia Gaffar named came after she won a podcast host of the year award: weeks later, when a friend congratulated her over coffee and she said thank you, she finally received it. In that moment she saw that she had been hoping for validation from others, and that she is the only one who needs to validate her. Niiamah Ashong recognized his own experience in hers, of expressing himself fully and still not feeling received. She closed the thread with a distinction of her own: people don't have to understand each other, they just have to be committed and be their word.

Questions this episode answers

What does it mean to operate from a baseline of joy?

Cordelia Gaffar says she radiates from self-nurturing and self-compassion and transcends the experiences she calls character building so she can operate from a baseline of joy. When her nervous system senses despair or stress, she asks how to transmute it rather than neutralize it, and benefit from what is present.

How can a leader turn anger into something constructive?

Cordelia Gaffar created one of her podcasts out of rage, and she processes hard moments through research, inner inquiry, writing and poetry. Niiamah Ashong reflected those tools back to her, open questioning in public, deep research and writing, and said that for him the tool is conversation.

Should you journal about a conflict or talk to the person?

Cordelia Gaffar tells her coaching clients that if what they are writing is fully about somebody else, they need to talk to that person and tell them exactly what is on their mind. When the journaling is about something within themselves, she encourages them to give it time and space first.

Why can recognition feel empty until you receive it yourself?

Cordelia Gaffar physically received a podcast host of the year award, yet only received it weeks later when she thanked a friend for congratulating her. She realized she had a barrier to receiving, and that she is the only one who needs to really validate her.

Do people need to understand each other to work together?

Cordelia Gaffar says people don't have to understand each other; they just have to be committed and be their word. She sees that commitment as what is missing broadly in the world.

In their words

Without nurturing who I am and who I'm being, I can't nurture anyone else.

Cordelia Gaffar

If it's fully about somebody else, talk to the person, just tell them.

Cordelia Gaffar

I'm the only one that needs to really validate me.

Cordelia Gaffar

Key moments

01:33 – Speaking Cordelia into the room

04:07 – Mothering as the foundation of her work

04:38 – Operating from a baseline of joy

08:17 – Hosting two podcasts

11:25 – Research, writing and poetry

12:58 – Transmuting stress, not neutralizing it

15:35 – Talk to the person, not the journal

19:16 – Finally receiving her award

25:00 – The only one who validates her

48:31 – Commitment over understanding

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Jennifer Tsang, a Professional Certified Coach and host of the In the Lead Show, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about what she stands for: peace, cultivated from the inside. She shares how owning herself and practicing with everyday discomfort changed the way she shows up. What emerged is that peace does not have to live outside of discomfort, and that even the inner imposter can be welcomed as data about what matters.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Jennifer Tsang, Professional Certified Coach, Cisco Systems learning and development leader, host of the In the Lead Show
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released May 17, 2022
• Format: conversation, 48 minutes
• Topics: Cultivating peace from within, Owning yourself, Practicing with everyday triggers, Holding space without fixing, The imposter as data, Discomfort as a sign of growth

What Jennifer brought to the conversation

Jennifer Tsang has more than 20 years of experience with Cisco Systems' Learning and Development organization, leading large-scale internal learning programs. She is a Professional Certified Coach who helps people build mental fitness and find greater success by developing mindfulness and discovering their leadership strengths, and she hosts the In the Lead Show, a weekly podcast about closing the gap between doing and being. She stands for peace beyond the cliches: how each person can cultivate it inside and show up in a triggering moment in a way that is aligned with who they want to be. After surrendering to where life was taking her, she made a big pivot a few years ago to become a certified coach, and she says she is now able to be her full self more than she ever has.

What emerged

The central idea is that peace and discomfort can come hand in hand. Jennifer Tsang practices with small, everyday triggers, noticing the urge to react and choosing to sit with it, and she finds that this capacity grows with practice and leads to better relationships, better leadership and better decisions. Rather than trying to get rid of the inner imposter or judge, she welcomes every part of herself and reads the imposter as data that something matters to her. Niiamah Ashong adds that in the spaces where he is growing he looks for discomfort, because without it he is repeating something he has already done.

Questions this episode answers

How can a leader practice handling discomfort in everyday life?

Jennifer Tsang suggests looking for small triggers, like a traffic jam, someone cutting in front of you in line at the supermarket, or an attack on social media, and practicing noticing the discomfort and the urge to react. She has at least five, ten or twenty such moments a day, and finds that the capacity to hold discomfort increases the more she practices.

Should leaders try to get rid of imposter syndrome?

Jennifer Tsang doesn't try to abolish the imposter or the judge; she integrates them, because she believes each part has skills, such as discernment. She treats imposter syndrome as data that is often saying this matters to you, and it could be pointing toward a purpose.

What are the benefits of learning to sit with discomfort?

Jennifer Tsang sees better relationships, both professional and personal, and the peace of knowing she will be okay no matter what happens. When she loses her cool, she now responds with curiosity about what happened rather than a harsh narrative, which she says leads to better leadership, better discernment and decisions aligned with her values.

Why can trying to make someone feel better get in the way of serving them?

Jennifer Tsang says that rushing to make people feel better can invalidate their experience, because it puts the helper's own comfort ahead of what the other person needs in that moment. Niiamah Ashong describes a coaching intensive where people let others have their experience instead of handing them tissues, and she agrees that truly serving someone means holding that space.

What does it mean to stand for peace as a leader?

For Jennifer Tsang, standing for peace goes beyond the cliches to how each person can cultivate peace inside. When someone attacks her or tries to get a reaction, she asks how she can show up in a way that is peaceful and in alignment with who she wants to be.

In their words

Once you own it, it doesn't control you anymore.

Jennifer Tsang

Discomfort will always find you, always, every single day.

Jennifer Tsang

I can't control everything going on out here, I can only control what's going on in here.

Jennifer Tsang

Key moments

05:12 – What Jennifer Tsang stands for

10:55 – A pivot into coaching

22:47 – Owning it takes away its control

26:28 – A room seeking to be triggered

27:30 – Practicing with small triggers

36:17 – Peace alongside discomfort

38:19 – Welcoming the inner imposter

43:02 – Discomfort as a sign of growth

44:34 – Imposter syndrome as data

46:38 – Notice more, live more peacefully

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Jeroo Billimoria, a social entrepreneur whose work has grown into global movements for children, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast to talk about collective leadership. She shares the simple philosophies behind her work and how a network of leading social entrepreneurs breaks silos to accelerate impact together. What emerged is her distinction between incremental and catalytic change: when an individual does it, it's incremental, and when the collective does it, it's exponential.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Jeroo Billimoria, Social entrepreneur behind global movements for child helplines and children's financial education
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released May 10, 2022
• Format: conversation, 29 minutes
• Topics: A shared story, not a solo one, Three guiding philosophies, Collaboration versus co-creation, Catalytic change, The spirit of sharing, Decentralized leadership

What Jeroo brought to the conversation

Jeroo Billimoria started social change work when she was very young, following in the footsteps of her mother, a social entrepreneur and academic. Her first social enterprise twinned children from rich schools with children from poor schools to bridge the class divide, and a phone number for street kids to call when they were alone grew into a global movement of child helplines in more than 150 countries, responding to more than 10 million calls a year. Another of her programs brings social and financial education to over 16 million children. Today she is inspired by a network of leading social entrepreneurs from across the world who recognize that they cannot work alone but together can accelerate impact.

What emerged

Niiamah Ashong noticed that his own language revealed an individual mentality, people coming together, while Jeroo Billimoria was describing something different: truly being a collective. Her distinction is that you collaborate to co-create, and you co-create to create catalytic change, the accelerated change that comes from the power of the collective. Niiamah Ashong connected this to his own charter of bringing outliers together, and Jeroo Billimoria described a future where the collective good, not individual ego, is at the forefront, with communities and their voices at the center.

Questions this episode answers

Can one leader create lasting change alone?

Jeroo Billimoria firmly believes no one person can impact change alone; everyone is a drop in the ocean of humanity. She adds that every drop counts, so each person does their bit while recognizing it is just their bit.

What is the difference between collaboration and co-creation?

Jeroo Billimoria says you collaborate to co-create, and her network takes it a step further: it collaborates to co-create catalytic change. She explains that when each individual does it, change is incremental, and when the collective does it, change is exponential.

What simple philosophies help leaders work well with others?

Jeroo Billimoria names three: there is always some good in the person you work with, so find it and build on it; five fingers are not the same, but you need all five; and you have two ears and one mouth, so listen more and speak less.

What does a spirit of sharing look like in practice?

During the pandemic, one social entrepreneur in her network was delivering food without a car; another lent a car and yet another raised funds for a vehicle, all within a week. On a larger scale, entrepreneurs came together to create a collective marketplace for ethical and artisan products where producers have ownership.

How can a leader help a team adopt a collective spirit?

Jeroo Billimoria's tip is don't centralize, decentralize, and believe in the power of the people who can facilitate and lead. She describes her network as a distributed entity with a team across the world, where the members are the governing council.

In their words

Five fingers are not the same but we need all five fingers.

Jeroo Billimoria

If each individual does it it's incremental but when the collective does it it's exponential.

Jeroo Billimoria

Don't centralize, decentralize and believe in the power of the people who can facilitate and lead.

Jeroo Billimoria

Key moments

01:38 – A shared story, not a solo one

02:39 – A helpline that became a movement

04:46 – No one changes the world alone

05:49 – The five fingers philosophy

06:21 – Two ears and one mouth

14:14 – Co-creation versus collaboration

18:53 – Putting communities at the center

21:27 – The spirit of sharing

26:01 – Don't centralize, decentralize

27:03 – Be yourself and be open

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

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Nicky Davies, who has spent 17 years in her own business developing inspired leaders in 22 countries, joins Niiamah Ashong on the Outlier's Edge Podcast for an open conversation about innovative leadership. She shares why she is now writing her own take on leadership, and why she believes leaders thrive at the edge between support and challenge. What emerged is a picture of leadership as managing uncertainty, where innovation means taking risks and being willing to be wrong half the time.

Episode at a glance

• Guest: Nicky Davies, Leadership developer who has developed inspired leaders in 22 countries and more than 70 organizations
• Host: Niiamah Ashong, coach to outlier leaders
• Show: Outlier’s Edge Podcast, released April 26, 2022
• Format: conversation, 44 minutes
• Topics: Conversations, not interviews, Putting her own take on leadership into the world, Balancing support and challenge, Safety as an illusion, Innovation and breaking rules, Leading through uncertainty

What Nicky brought to the conversation

Nicky Davies has worked for 17 years in her own business developing inspired leaders in 22 different countries and more than 70 organizations, and has hosted her own podcast for 15 months. After years of teaching established leadership models, she is now writing a report on her own take on leadership and says she feels very clear and confident about it. She sees it as a legacy: something a leader she has coached can point to and say, this is her take on leadership. She knows not everyone will like it and is putting it out anyway.

What emerged

The central insight is that thriving requires a balance of support and challenge, not empathy and compassion alone. Nicky Davies observed employee engagement scores rising in 2020 and falling again after early 2021, and argues that leaning only on empathy can smother people because growth and innovation live at the edge between support and challenge. Niiamah Ashong framed 2020 as survival mode and today as a return to thriving, where the variables in the formula change, and both agreed that uncertainty comes with the territory of leadership.

Questions this episode answers

Is more empathy and compassion enough for leaders to retain people?

Nicky Davies doesn't think so. She says putting too much emphasis on empathy and compassion can smother people, and that organizations thrive with a balance of support and challenge, because that edge is where growth and innovation happen.

Why do innovative leaders have to take risks?

Nicky Davies says safety is an illusion and innovation isn't about playing it safe; it means breaking some of the rules. She describes innovation as moving from asking why, to asking what if, to proposing a different way, and says that kind of creative problem solving comes with risk.

How often should a leader expect to be wrong?

Nicky Davies says a leader is going to get it right 50 percent of the time and wrong 50 percent of the time, and that's the price of being a leader. She sees leadership as holding paradoxes and managing uncertainty.

What makes a podcast conversation more valuable than an interview?

Nicky Davies says her best episodes are conversations that go deeper than promoting a book or service, and those get the best feedback because listeners relate to them. Niiamah Ashong calls these emergent conversations, led by curiosity and questions, as opposed to convergent ones with a fixed outcome.

In their words

Innovation isn't about playing it safe, it is about breaking some of the rules.

Nicky Davies

It's really going to be a balance of support and challenge.

Nicky Davies

The deeper we go the more universal it is because we all have feelings.

Niiamah Ashong

Key moments

05:40 – Conversations, not interviews

09:17 – Emergent versus convergent conversations

10:21 – The power of better questions

13:59 – Writing her own take on leadership

16:38 – Leadership as legacy

20:16 – What engagement scores revealed

22:22 – Balancing support and challenge

26:59 – Safety is an illusion

28:32 – Innovation means breaking rules

33:12 – Right half the time

About Niiamah Ashong

Niiamah Ashong is a coach to outlier leaders, host of the Outlier’s Edge Podcast, and founder of the Trailblazer Collective. He coaches leaders who are creating something only they can make: a company, a body of work or a movement. Make a difference with your difference.

Work with Niiamah: 1:1 with Niiamah | World of Difference

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